caffeine vs. mateine and addiction in regards to yerba mate

topic posted Mon, June 7, 2004 - 11:58 PM by  Unsubscribed
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this article taken from:
www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/yer_02.htm

The xanthines draw a lot of attention, chief of which is caffeine. Others are theophylline and theobromine. All of the xanthines have a similar stereo-chemistry but each has its own unique set of properties.

For many years, and even now, in some sectors, yerbamate' was (is) thought to contain caffeine. It turns out that mateine is not identical to caffeine; it differs from caffeine in some rather dramatic ways.

Some members of the scientific community still resort to calling mateine a South American term for caffeine, or to maintaining, in perfect knowledge of the falseness of the assertion, that two substances so similar chemically must have the same properties.

Slowly, they are being forced to acknowledge the distinction between mateine and caffeine.

Modern studies seem to validate the difference between mate' and other xanthines-containing plants, such as guarana.

Stereo-chemical and clinical work on xanthines in the last couple of decades have shown that, though similar in structure, the members of this class have widely varying pharmacology.

In fact, there is only one effect that seems to be shared by all trimethyl xanthines: smooth muscle relaxation. It is this action that makes them with the exception of caffeine, whose smooth muscle relaxant effects are diminished by other side effects, good clinical dilators of the bronchi and hence useful in the treatment of asthma.

Over the past year, I have been giving the Yerba mate' tea to my patients who need to stop using caffeine-containing products for health reasons. I have had good feedback on the results. I like having a healthful substitute for coffee, tea and colas to offer them. K.L.P., M.D.

Chemical assays on mate' have traditionally looked for caffeine, and in such tests mateine, being a simple stereo-isomer of caffeine, would test positive. Until recently nobody has looked at the exact structure of the molecule--and, to my knowledge, nobody in the United States has ever made the attempt.

Researchers at the Free Hygienic Institute of Homburg, Germany, concluded that even if there were caffeine in mate', the amount would be so tiny that it would take 100 tea bags of mate' in a six ounce cup of water to equal the caffeine in a six ounce serving of regular coffee.

They make the rather astute observation that it is obvious that the active principle in yerbamate' is not caffeine! But then, we know for sure it is not caffeine, for caffeine is not present at all.

Mateine, then, has a unique pharmacology and it is unfair to compare it to caffeine (incidentally, guarana may not contain caffeine either, it may contain something that could be called guaraneine, however that substance looks like it is more deleterious than caffeine!).

Mateine appears to possess the best combination of xanthine properties possible.

For example, like other xanthines, it stimulates the central nervous system, but unlike most, it is not habituating or addicting. Likewise, unlike caffeine, it induces better, not worse, attributes of sleep.

It is a mild, not a strong, diuretic, as are many xanthines. It relaxes peripheral blood vessels, thereby reducing blood pressure, without the strong effect on the medulla and heart exhibited by some xanthines.

We also know that it improves psychomotor performance without the typical xanthine-induced depressant after effects.

Dr. Jose Martin, Director of the National Institute of Technology in Paraguay, writes, New research and better technology have shown that while mate'ine has a chemical constituency similar to caffeine, the molecular binding is different.

Mateine has none of the ill effects of caffeine. And Horacio Conesa, professor at the University of Buenos Aires Medical School, states, There is not a single medical contraindication for ingesting mate'.

Clinical studies show, in fact, that individuals with caffeine sensitivities can ingest mate' without adverse reactions.

The time has come, therefore, to discard the outmoded ideas that
(1) xanthines are all alike,
(2) that yerbamate' contains caffeine, and
(3) that mateine is identical with caffeine. It would be tragic indeed if nature created such a beneficial plant and then, through some bizarre quirk, contaminated it with caffeine.

It is more likely that mate' is, as some say, Natures most perfect beverage, or, as others maintain, the beverage of the Gods.

Summarizing the clinical studies of France, Germany, Argentina and other countries, it appears that we may be dealing here with the most powerful rejuvenator known to man. Unlike the guarana of the Tupi, the coca of the Incas, the coffee of India, or the tea of China, mate' rejuvenates not by the false hopes of caffeine, but simply through the wealth of its nutrients.

By Daniel Mowry, PhD


see these sites also:

www.noborders.net/mate/health.html

ma-tea.com/caffeine_substitute.htm

coffeetea.about.com/library/...yerba.htm

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  • Excellent post. I knew I had read something similar to this but haven't been able to find it.

    As a reformed coffee junkie I have always maintained that there is no way that this drink has your standard caffine in it. I still drink coffee occasionally, and I guess that makes me a monkey who still likes his crack rock.
    • This post is very interesting, and gives me a better understanding of the chemistry at work in my body. Thanks!! Yerba Mate is my bev of choice before drumming or going out, especially if I've had a busy day already. Oh, I still like a cuppa joe every now and then. Kinda depends what I'm after, but it seemed apparant to me that they are very different beverages just from the way I react.
  • caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

    Wed, June 23, 2004 - 10:57 PM
    Hello all,

    First, let me preface this reply with a statement of the fact that I am an avid fan and supporter of Yerba Mate, and definitely prefer the experiential effects I derive from its use compared to that of coffee (especially with regards to the digestive system).

    That being said, I need to respond to the ongoing propaganda touting the miracle of "mateine". I was confused about this for a while, and suspicious of all the online editorials that sounded more like advertisements than science. I did some research at UC Berkeley on Illex Paraguensis in search of a definitive answer. What I found is well-summarized by the following Erowid article (which in fact addresses the article originally posted in this thread), part of which I am posting here:
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    www.erowid.org/plants/yer...stry1.shtml

    Does Yerba Mate Contain Caffeine or Mateine?
    or, "Does Mateine Exist?"

    Erowid receives semi-regular notes from well intentioned visitors telling us that Yerba Mate does not contain caffeine, but instead contains mateine. After looking into the issue several times in the past, it has become necessary to write a brief description of why we believe that caffeine is the major psychoactive chemical in Yerba Mate and mateine is simply another name for caffeine.

    One of the most surprising parts of the research into the topic is that it appears that several articles available online are completely bogus, having been either faked by a vendor to improve sales or a Yerbe Mate fan in order to explain why they liked Yerba Mate tea and not other types of caffeinated tea.

    One of the errors in the literature talking about "mateine" is the claim that it is a stereoisomer of caffeine. This stands out because, as any organic chemist can easily tell you, there is no stereoisomer of caffeine. The caffeine molecule lacks a stereocenter and thus there are no rotational isomers at all. This error, repeated widely, shows the people writing the texts know little about chemistry and the rest of their information about this theoretical chemical must be considered suspect.

    There is no stereoisomer of caffeine. It's that simple.
    www.erowid.org/chemicals/...eine_2d.gif

    One thing to note is that people report slightly different effects from drinking Yerba Mate than from drinking green tea, although the exact differences have not been well documented. A common misunderstanding exists that this necessarily means that Yerba Mate does not contain caffeine as a major psychoactive alkaloid. It is possible for different experiential effects to be a result of other variables, including differences in dosage, differences in accompanying minerals or related alkaloids, expectations, taste, smell, etc. Mint tea or gum, for instance, can be stimulating or refreshing partially based on smelling the volatile fragrance oil. It is not known exactly in what ways Yerba Mate is experientially different from Chinese teas or what accounts for those differences.
    -------------------------------------------------------------

    So there you have it, in a nutshell. I must confess I was disillusioned when I found out that Yerba Mate had caffeine, but I realize now that it is just a cultural stigma associated with the name. Studying biochemistry, psychopharmacology, and traditional herbal medicine has taught me that there is a lot more to a plant's effects than it's "active constituent", because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts - the synergistic effects between a plant's constituents and the context of their delivery play a huge role in the experiential results of their use.

    Still, I ended up putting down my bombilla because of a particular effect that I noticed I experienced when I drank Yerba Mate regularly - my muscles became slightly inflamed, and I was more prone to martial arts injuries and vertebral subluxations. Lately, I've been resorting to frequent use of green tea for some needed alertness, happy about the antioxidant properties it shares with Yerba Mate.

    However, time and again I am reminded (through the intuitive wisdom of my body) that all of the xanthine derivatives end up taxing my adrenal glands and keeping my body in a mild state of flight-or-fight. I know and feel that this long-term stress is detrimental to my health, vitality, and longevity. I am happy to indulge in white tea, green tea and Yerba Mate to help get me through the crunch times in studying, research, or work... yet I know that the sustainable regimen would be to get more sleep and drink Qi tonic herbal teas.

    Blessings,

    Leonardo
    • Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

      Sat, February 26, 2005 - 7:06 PM
      I am also a HUGE fan of Mate, though I know for a fact that it contains caffeine. Yes, sad to say, I am still a caff addict.

      How do I know for a fact? Well, a few years ago I worked with a little organic and vegan chai tea company out of Santa Cruz, California, called Nub Chai. When I started working with these guys, Nub Chai had just started a whole new line of beverages besides just bottled chai tea. That line included "Mint Mate", a yummy and refreshing mixture using Guayaki brand yerba mate. (No worries, this is not a sly sales ploy...that beverage line isn't around anymore, though the company still is and is still rockin'). Nub also sold Guayaki in bulk.

      Needless to say, we did a whole bunch of research into this product that we were now selling. The most interesting bit of research, however, came out of some chemical tests of the active ingredient in Mate by a licensed facility hired by Nub to give us some answers. We had the same question: caffeine or mateine? The test results: no structural difference in the "mateine" molecule from caffeine, read: "mateine" is caffeine. I even looked over the test results myself, applying my biology degree for once. Sorry I can't give more details about the report (so so many years ago now!), but if you are interested to know more, try contacting Nub Chai at www.nub.com. They might be able to help you out.

      Besides, my body is proof positive in telling me that Mate has caffeine in it. I don't get a killer headache if I have Mate in the morning instead of coffee. Leonardo is right, its all about the sum of its parts, and there are sum other great things in Mate to make it into the awesome and nourishing tea that it is.
    • Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

      Sun, February 27, 2005 - 5:22 AM
      Leonardo et al.--

      i ain't attached to the question of mateine vs. caffeine in any case. i like both coffee and mate, and i ain't ashamed of enjoying either one.

      I don't know much chemistry--none beyond high school. but your article made me geek out for a sec on wikipedia...there i reminded myself about the definition of isomers--same formula, different arrangement of atoms. i also reminded myself a bit about how to read the structural formula of chemicals.

      then i was confused. so maybe i'm not reading stuff right. when i look at your picture of caffeine it seems pretty easy to imagine switching a couple of the bonds around--effectively making the bottom right and the top right Ns switch places.

      this would make it so the CH3 group at the top right in caffeine was at the bottom right instead...

      this would give you a molecule that IS an isomer of caffeine--same formula, different layout.

      now, i also understand that it wouldn't be a stereoisomer, since it wouldn't be a non-superimposable mirror image of the original caffeine molecule.

      so my question for you then is this: so what if it ain't a stereoisomer? is it possible that it could be a regular ol' structural isomer of caffeine?
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

        Fri, March 4, 2005 - 6:54 PM
        Thanks for posting the article.

        I have always noticed that mate doesn't have the "body load" that coffee does. With all that acidity and caffeine in coffee it can just sometimes make me feel cracky and give me the strong urge to have a BM...and no I don't mean Burning Man.

        I like mate alot, and I don't think it tweeks with my brain as much as coffee does. I'm sensitive to stimulants, and drugs in general, so sometimes when I have a latte I'm like some people are on speed and then I get and cranky and "crash." Mate seems like it's less likely to do this to me.

        thanks again for the post, great stuff...
        ~Nathan
        • Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

          Thu, March 10, 2005 - 9:26 AM
          Thank you so much for this information. I gave up coffee two months ago and have been having Mate instead. I've notice some changes on a female level (around the monthly blessing) that has been truly amazing. I feel more balanced.

          Thank you for sharing! ~ Pauline
          • Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

            Tue, March 15, 2005 - 4:34 PM
            I switched to mate as my daily staple wake up drink,as it seems to have WAY less adverse affects...however, several months ago I stopped the mate for a cleanse that I was doing, for which I decided to cut out all stimulants, and was very suprised to experience about 3 days of withdrawl, very similar to my experiences of coming off coffee. Caffeine or mateine, it is still addictive.. I usually drink through a bombilla, but sometimes I'll make a Mate Latte by steeping the tea in a french press, and its like doing 8 shots of espresso...Zowie! But then, I use massive amounts as I prefer it stronger than anyone else I've ever met, (exactly the way I like my coffee!) Am I the only one who's cupp is filled to the top with leaf after 4 rounds? I have to laugh at these itty bitty tea bags of mate that they are marketing now-a-days....It would take me about 10 just to get started!
    • Re: caffeine vs. mateine - a different take

      Thu, March 24, 2005 - 1:27 PM
      If there is no stereoisomer of caffeine, then perhaps "mateine" is to caffeine as theobromine is to caffeine. I don't have the org chem background to go beyond the suggestion, but there was talk of the xanthene group, chemicals related to caffeine of which mateine (and theobromine) is supposedly one. Not stereoisomers but grouped together by some other structural similarity.
  • Well, Mate is wonderful, and it is -the- solution to coffee addiction, but unfortunately there are some inadequacies in this post.

    The idea that since the effect of the mate is different than coffee that the caffeine molecule must be different is an ergo propter hoc argument.

    The science is the science, it is not anything else. The structure of mateine is identical to the structure of caffeine, and there have been numerous studies to prove it.

    What we need to understand is that it is not the fact that there is no caffeine in Mate, but it is the OTHER substances in mate that counteract the acidifying effects of the caffeine in mate.

    Altogether, the the overall effects of mate are miraculous, compared to coffee, but that does not mean the caffeine alkaloid in mate is somehow magically different just because it is called mateine when found in mate.

    It is what it is, it is caffeine.

    When caffeine is found in Mate, we call it Mateine. Don't get confused, it is exactly the same alkaloid as caffeine.

    "One of the errors in the literature upon which the "mateine" claims are based is the claim that mateine is a stereoisomer of caffeine. This stands out because, there are no stereoisomers of caffeine. In order to have a stereoisomer, a chemical nearly always (see below) must have a stereocenter. The caffeine molecule lacks a stereocenter, does not have one of the unusual special cases, and thus there are no stereoisomers. This error, repeated widely, has had no foundation in the scientific literature."
    (www.erowid.org/plants/yer...try1.shtml)

    Yes, mate is different than coffee and other teas. No, the actual molecular structure of the alkaloid caffeine cannot be different than what it is just because it has a synonym.

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